Talk:Pierre Vorrutyer (brother of Dono)
My meanderings through the Internet found this: http://librarium.narod.ru/bujold/vorkosiverse.txt, which I think should be useful for everyone. Anyways, my main point here is that Lois herself seems to indicate that Le Sanguinaire is Pierre II's great-great-grandfather, rather than just grandfather (or that somebody broke from tradition, but that throws my entire argument into chaos). So I'm wondering if A) we should change the article and B) How whacked does the timeline have to be? Westbrook (talk) 06:07, October 16, 2013 (UTC) That site is handy! (I've added it to my notes - I don't think it has anything that I don't, but I'll have to look it over to be sure.) Certainly there should be some sort of note put into the article, probably a section that discusses matters. Also, a relatively thorough discussion might as well go here, on the talk page, for future reference. Starting a bit of outline for us to work on just with the textev: 1. Miles names Mister Sanguine to be his own great-great grandfather (Diplomatic Immunity, chapter 10), P-LS-VR's eldest daughter was Piotr's mother (A Civil Campaign, chapter 7). 2. The discussion in A Civil Campaign chapter 3 has some merit as well, where Byerly explains how Aral's first wife was his Vorrutyer-side aunt, followed by Miles's thoughts about By being the youngest of his generation. Then chapter 4 has Richars identified as eldest son of eldest uncle in Vorrutyer line. 3. Other places? Moving out of textev into loisev, there's the site you list above and these: 1. http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/2012-August/102544.html 2. http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/2011-January/064489.html 3. http://lists.herald.co.uk/old-archives/lois-bujold/990714-2541, in "Re:ACC Chapter 7 (spoilers) -- family tree claifications" 4. http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/2012-October/107648.html They aren't the only places that where Lois discusses Vorrutyer family, but they have the most detail. Any conclusions? KarenHunt (talk) 11:43, October 16, 2013 (UTC) I'm coming back to this discussion nearly a year later, so....yeah. I had actually thought about this before I went on sabbatical, and went and dug out my old theory on this. -Count Pierre Le Sanguinaire Vorrutyer was Dorca Vorbarra's right hand thug, and was the father of Piotr Vorkosigan's mother, making him Piotr's maternal grandfather. -Dorca reigned during the end of the Time of Isolation. -There was a 15-20 year period between the end of the Time of Isolation and the Cetagandan Invasion. -Piotr Vorkosigan was appointed a General by Dorca Vorbarra at age 20 to fight the Cetagandans, meaning he must have been somewhere between 2-5 at the end of the Time of Isolation. -Cetagandan War lasts 20 years, meaning Piotr was 42 or so when the War ended. -Pierre LS Vorrutyer was "a foul-tongued old age" when the Cetagandans finally killed him-how old is never specified. -Aral Vorkosigan is born when Piotr is 30 (best guess). -Piotr is 75 when Miles is born. -Piotr dies, aged 92. -Pierre II, Donna/Dono's brother, is hardly 50 when he died (Miles is 30 at this point, Aral is probably 74/75, so Pierre is dead in-between Aral and Miles). Possible Genealogy #1: -Count Pierre Le Sanguinaire Vorrutyer. -Count Luc I Vorrutyer, son of le Sanguinaire. -Count Pierre II Vorrutyer, grandson; Count Piotr Pierre Vorkosigan-grandson (by a daughter) of le Sanguinaire. -Count Luc II Vorrutyer, great-grandson of le Sanguinaire. -Count Pierre III Vorrutyer, great-great-grandson of le Sanguinaire, brother of Dono. -Count Dono Vorrutyer, great-great-grandson of le Sanguinaire, brother of Pierre III. -Lord Luc III Vorrutyer, great-great-great-great-grandson of le Sanguinaire. Genealogy #2: Count Pierre Le Sanguinaire Vorrutyer Count Luc Vorrutyer-son of le Sanguinaire. Count Pierre II Vorrutyer-grandson of le Sanguinaire, brother of Dono. Count Dono Vorrutyer-grandson of le Sanguinaire, brother of Pierre. Now, loisev seems to indicate that Pierre II is in fact Le Sanguinaire's great-great-grandson (meaning he would technically be Pierre III), but it would be so much simpler if he was just the grandson! Maybe those Vorrutyers could have married late or something. The Vorrutyers would have had to have died out pretty quickly for Pierre to inherit when he did-According to ACC, he was barely fifty when he died (Donna was nearly forty, meaning the two were ten years apart). But Vorrutyers are known to have bad hearts/circulatory systems, so it is possible that cardiac arrest or other medial issues did in a number of the previous Vorrutyers. Given that Pierre was 50 when he died, he's about equidistant between Miles (30 as of the time of ACC) and Aral (73-75), especially since Ges is of an age with Aral. So the recent family history of the Vorrutyers is this: Count Pierre Le Sanguinaire Vorrutyer-killed by the Cetagandans, (in a "foul-tongued old age"); Count Luc Vorrutyer, son of le Sanguinaire-died in Yuri's Civil War or of a bad heart; Count Pierre Vorrutyer, grandson of le Sanguinaire, died of a bad heart, had five children (Count Luc, father of Pierre & Dono/Donna, Ges, Lady Vorrutyer Vorkosigan, and Richars' and Byerly's fathers); Count Luc Vorrutyer, great-grandson of Le Sanguinaire, died of a bad heart; Count Pierre Vorrutyer, great-great-grandson, died of a bad heart; Count Dono Vorrutyer-current Count. Whew! Westbrook (talk) 02:49, September 15, 2014 (UTC)